Magnum, I dont think everyone takes small dosages. I just cant stand the statement and thought some people have of “that guys a pro because he abused himself way past what I do”…..that to me is a freaking excuse to explain away “the genetics mom and pop didnt give” that guy

I think there are 400 or so pros and I think the dosages vary greatly with some moderate, some normal and some abuse. I just dont throw those 400 pros into one boat and say “oh they must be all following the pro stack protocol now given to them by the IFBB and all doing the same thing”

I just have a huge problem with people that cannot embrace reality in this sport that some other bodybuilders might be far far ahead of themselves in genetic gifts. And also people that feel “if anyone juices enough” he can get a pro card. Then do it, simple as that. Massmonster32 has been saying that for years that it can be done. Then prove it. Its been 3 years since he started saying it…how close has he gotten?

I cant run like Barry Sanders, I cant jump like Michael Jordan, and there is no amount of drugs that could make me even close…..just like there isnt any amount of drugs for anyone (who isnt of “incredibely favorable genetics”) that is going to allow them to stand next to Coleman onstage and look like a carbon copy of him. Striving to acheive goals is fine in my opinion, having a dream is fine, but living in a fantasy world of “Im going to make it! It only took me 8 years to get to 215 but Im going to be a pro someday!” is sad


CONTINUED: Yes i do think he was natural in that pic–a couple months after he started lifting and 17 years old? Yea

What has changed? First off the genetic pool has changed. Outside of Oliva I cant see many guys back then who could get a pro card today. Haney, Levrone, Wheeler, Coleman, Cormier etc etc etc….80’s onward.

GH usage since the 80’s a definite change.

Amounts of steroids ? Ive heard some pretty abusive things in my time from Don Ross before he died about what the boys were doing back in the day (who told me things in great detail but forbid me to print it) and I think its kind of comical of how Michalik used to brag about the absolutely insane amounts he did … (but now I guess his ego has got the best of him and his memory recounts how he was somewhat mild comparing to the guys today)…..somehow those old “dball like it was candy” statements got erased from his memory banks.
What has changed dramatically IMO? Insulin usage. In far greater amounts than what most people think has been used. Three to Five times a day in large amounts to gain weight. Now some pro’s are now getting far away from insulin because with that size weight gain came a great downside for many. Although for some reason I still have never been able to figure out the “grandfather of insulin usage” who brought insulin usage to the pro ranks has never had that detrimental look happen to his physique.


Stinging Nettle or Nettle Root


To talk a little bit more about the above in vague terms

Feb Ironman
March Arnold
May Night of champions
July USA’s
Sept Oct Olympia
November Nationals

We have all seen top bodybuilders in the audience, in the expo or walking around at all these shows spread out thru the year, (not too many of them are looking smaller or smooth like they are “off”)

mix in 10-15 guest posings a year on various weekends spread thruout the year, mix in photo shoots maybe 2-3 times a year, mix in appearances for store openings, and other guest appearances (Fibo, Euro shows appearances)………and I think you get the picture that sometimes I dont take much weight when I hear a pro saying “I try to take as much time off as I am on”

I think some people arent looking at the big picture here.

They think “short cycles” and think “what the hell am I going to do in 4 weeks”?

Think or it as a whole 4+2+4+2+4+2 or 7+3+7+3+7+3 (or similiar) and the method to the madness might come to you. And then you can think “Is it better if I bombard myself into complete and utter HPTA dormancy/shutdown for 16-20 weeks straight? Or is it better if “to the best of ones ability” to do PCT every 4-7 weeks (even if its slightly abbreviated)…….

As I know the argument will come after this post…….. If anyone here loses 25 pounds of muscle in 2-3 weeks of PCT after 4-7 weeks on… might want to pick a new endeavor as a hobby because your doing this one wrong.

cruising means PCT (in my context)

Blasting (=training  hard and on if someone is enhanced)
Cruising (=maintenance training  and PCT)

A persons PCT is defined by themself. Some do some form of PCT. Some refuse to get off and do low dose test. And I should state that some people in top echelons of this sport who have to keep a certain look for multi appearances (Arnold Classic, Ironman, Night of Champions, USA’s, Olympia, Euro shows, Nationals) have to think things out individually and Im not going to fault them for that. I think we can all think of certain pro’s and top ams that make alot of guest posings, appearances and compete (year round) that havent looked (smaller or smooth) for many years. To each his own

I think your confusing “bridging” with the word I use “cruising” 


The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid  users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300—1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid  users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6′, 206lb former user of 500—2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg Nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5’10”, 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject’s 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg Nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of HCG every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg Nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg Nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.(20)

Comments: The authors of this paper have presented some very interesting data that the medical community needs to learn from. When dealing with former androgen users, there may be better ways to increase Testosterone than the standard patch treatment (which will only prolong the problem of decreased T production.) Hypogonadal former androgen users need a treatment, not a band-aid. If you need to jump start your Testosterone after an androgen cycle, this combination of HCG, Clomid, and Nolvadex may be just what the doctor ordered. 

HMG is typically used to treat infertility . Basically, long term use of HCG at doses of 1000 i.u. 3 or more times weekly causes suppresion or insensitivity of Luetinizing hormone (LH) and to some degree Follicle stimulating hormone (FSH).

Body builders who dont respond to the classic PCT schemes of low dose HCG and clomid for a few weeks will definitley have a hard time with recovery and may encounter depression, a lacking sexual drive, low testicular weight along with low semen/sperm volume.

HMG is Follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luetinizing hormone (LH). This simply stimulates your natural test production and keeps HCG working optimally. Your sex drive and sense of well being come back more rapidly then with other treatmentsr as well as your potential for staying or becoming fertile.

Luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) are called gonadotropins because stimulate the gonads – in males, the testes, and in females, the ovaries. They are not necessary for life, but are essential for reproduction. These two hormones are secreted from cells in the anterior pituitary called gonadotrophs. Most gonadotrophs secrete only LH or FSH, but some appear to secrete both hormones.

As described for thyroid-simulating hormone, LH and FSH are large glycoproteins composed of alpha and beta subunits. The alpha subunit is identical in all three of these anterior pituitary hormones, while the beta subunit is unique and endows each hormone with the ability to bind its own receptor.

In both sexes, LH stimulates secretion of sex steroids  from the gonads. In the testes, LH binds to receptors on Leydig cells, stimulating synthesis and secretion of testosterone. Theca cells in the ovary respond to LH stimulation by secretion of testosterone, which is converted into estrogen by adjacent granulosa cells.

As its name implies, FSH stimulates the maturation of ovarian follicles. Administration of FSH to humans and animals induces “superovulation”, or development of more than the usual number of mature follicles and hence, an increased number of mature gametes.

FSH is also critical for sperm production. It supports the function of Sertoli cells, which in turn support many aspects of sperm cell maturation.

Diminished secretion of LH or FSH can result in failure of gonadal function (hypogonadism). This condition is typically manifest in males as failure in production of normal numbers of sperm. In females, cessation of reproductive cycles is commonly observed.

Elevated blood levels of gonadotropins usually reflect lack of steroid  negative feedback. Removal of the gonads from either males or females, as is commonly done to animals, leads to persistent elevation in LH and FSH. In humans, excessive secretion of FSH and/or LH most commonly the result of gonadal failure or pituitary tumors. In general, elevated levels of gonadotropins per se have no biological effect.

Heres a quick study:
Ten typical cases of male eunuchoidism (two with anosmia) are reported. After administration of clomifene citrate to five patients, there is no change in blood levels of gonadotrophins in four cases; in the fifth, a small and transitory increase of LH is noted. The intravenous injection of LHRH (100 mug) to five patients induces an increase of serum LH in all cases and serum FSH in three cases. The initial site of the dysfunction is possibly hypothalamic with secondary gonadotrophic pituitary insufficiency. Among six patients anxious for paternity, prolonged treatment (for 36 to 98 weeks), with HCG (250-1 000 I.U. daily) +HMG (65-120 I.U. FSH daily) results in appearance of spermatozoa in the seminal fluid in five cases and a pregnancy was obtained in four cases. Comments are done upon methods of treatment.”

“Ten typical cases of male eunuchoidism (two with anosmia) are reported. After administration of clomifene citrate to five patients there was no change in blood levels of gonadotrophins in four cases; in the fifth, a small and transitory increase of LH was noted. The intravenous injection of LHRH (100 mcg) to five patients induced an increase of serum LH in all cases and serum FSH in three cases. The initial site of the dysfunction is possibly hypothalamic with secondary gonadotrophic pituitary insufficiency. Among six patients desiring paternity, prolonged treatment (for 36 to 98 weeks), with HCG(1700-7000 I.U. weekly) + HMG (450-825 I.U. FSG weekly) resulted in the appearance of spermatozoa in the seminal fluid in five cases and a pregnancy was obtained in four cases. Methods of treatment are discussed.”

“Although testosterone (T) therapy is sufficient for maturation and maintenance of secondary sex characteristics in hypogonadal men, gonadotropins are required for stimulation of spermatogenesis. Thirteen men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism received treatment with hCG, followed in 12 by the addition of human menopausal gonadotropin (hMG). All initially had undetectable serum LH and FSH and low T levels and were azoospermic with small testes. During therapy, all achieved normal male levels of T. Twelve of 13 had marked and continuous increase in testicular volume. Three men had sperm in the ejaculate with hCG treatment alone. All but 1 patient developed sperm in their seminal fluid during combined hCG and hMG therapy. Two men achieved three pregnancies, and 2 more had semen that produced hamster oocyte penetration assays in the fertile range during the protocol period. Four of 5 who achieved sperm densities greater than 1 million/ml while receiving combined therapy maintained or increased sperm production while receiving continued hCG therapy after hMG was withdrawn. We examined the response to gonadotropin therapy of men who had received previous T therapy and those who had not. There were no differences in rapidity or degree of response, as assessed by rise in serum T, increase in testis volume, or maximal sperm density achieved. Multiple pituitary deficits and cryptorchidism were negative prognostic factors. In summary, the prognosis for successful stimulation of spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism treated with hCG/hMG is good and not adversely affected by prior androgen treatment. Despite undetectable serum FSH levels, hCG treatment was sufficient to both initiate and maintain spermatogenesis in some patients.”

Dante::Personally I havent seen any bodybuilder yet do the above therapy (for pregnating their wife) and NOT end up getting their wives pregnant. 



I couldnt disagree more strongly with alot of people in this thread.

Start with doing searches on the

Thermic effect of feeding or Thermic effect of food (TEF)


Dr. Lonnie Lowery: Now might be a good time to discuss the potential for protein  over-consumption. As you both know, there’s no consensus (or even a single study to my knowledge) that excess protein  (> 0.8 g/kg) does any measurable damage to healthy kidneys. Most of the scare tactics stem from the data on renal patients.

These patients end up with rapid loss of kidney function on normal high protein  diets. Interestingly, the very professionals who point out every mistaken extrapolation in the dietary supplement world conveniently forget that they’re doing the same “leap of faith” bullshit by applying this patient data to healthy athletes.

Having said that, I think there are real body composition advantages to eating upwards of 1.5 g/ lb. That’s right, overfeed protein ! First off, overeating protein , within reason, will not make you fat. A calorie is not a calorie! That is, excess protein  calories aren’t as likely to be stored as body fat compared to carbs and most fats.

This is because protein  has to have its nitrogen ripped off in the liver (the urea cycle), which is an energy costly process. To boot, protein  kicks up glucagon secretion and glucagon antagonizes the lipogenic (fat storage) effects of insulin.

Carbs don’t lend people the same favor; they just jack insulin levels sky high. The net result is that the thermic effect of food is about 30% of the intake for proteins, while it’s just 4 to 6% for fats and carbohydrates. This means that for a 100 calorie meal, protein  will require a full 30 calories just to process it, compared to a mere 4 to 6 calories expended to process those yummy gut-expanding carbs and fats. 

The bottom line is that it appears better to overeat than to under-eat protein  when you’re trying to add muscle mass while keeping the body fat off.



Welle et al. (1981) and Robinson et al (1990) demonstrated that during a normal six hour period of rest and fasting (basal metabolism), subjects burn about 270kcal. When eating a single 400kcal meal of carbs alone (100g) or fat alone (44g), the energy burned during this six hour period reached 290kcal (an additional 20kcal). Interestingly, when eating 400kcal of protein  alone (100g) the subjects burned 310kcal during this six hour period (an additional 40kcal). Therefore, protein  alone had double the thermogenic power vs. fat or carbs alone!


Doggcrapp::You add exercise into the mix of this equation and the results are greatly enhanced. 


a) seen many California Superheavyweights go up to 2 grams of test a week and you guys have never heard of them because they arent and never will be higher echelon contest winning bodybuilders

b) seen or heard of a few idiot pro and AM bodybuilders who went to the 4-5 gram range on test and other drugs. Five of who I can think of off hand…what happened to the five of them?
1) jail–done in sport
2) severe kidney problems (BP)-done
3) competed against Phil I believe, never had even close to the mass as Phil who dwarfed him and used fractions of what he did….some health problems were arising but he tore his quad badly and is out of the sport forever before the health probs could accumalate
4) severe kidney problems (almost died)–done
5) dead (yes 100% absolutely stone cold dead-heart)

c) seen many many many other “TOPSHELF NAME” trainers programs for high echelon people in this sport….almost to a tee all compounds were the regular 800-1200 test (sometimes in a few instances (rarely) up to 1500) and the normal other dosages large offseason responsible bodybuilders do. These same “olympia” competing and caliber bbers are the same ones Ive seen people in here say “oh my freind’s brother’s barber’s girlfreind’s garbageman said that Joe Pro is loaded to the gills and takes 6 grams of test a week–take that to the bank!”…and other crazed stories because peoples ego’s cant take and cant comprehend that certain bodybuilders genetics in this sport’s allow them to absolutely annihilate any kind of size barrier that “said puzzled person” is held to.
I. E. I know what Phil was doing back in the day a decade back, and there have been hundreds if not a thousand people who have talked about their cycles in this forum who have way exceeded what he was doing by multitudes…..and 90% of those guys could stand next to Phil onstage and would get absolutely laughed at, dwarfed and embarrased.

The people in this sport need a freaking reality check…a reality check that everything you cant attain or understand how someone else got there doesnt mean automatically that they “must be doing something secretive” to get there. Do you think if Gail Devers and Ronnie Coleman ended up getting married and having kids that your kids would even have a chance of being as good as bodybuilders as theirs? Mom and Pop is the answer to many peoples puzzlement in this sport not another “well maybe ill hit the magic zone if I throw in another 1000mg of test and 3 more Iu’s of gh a day on top of the boatload im already doing”….. 


LOL and you know this….how? Because you believe it so? Because you take large dosages and dont want to feel bad about yourself doing it? Do you think if all drugs were removed from the equation that you could stand onstage next to a natural Victor Richards, Ronnie Coleman, and Jay Cutler because as you say above “genetically different isnt scientifically possible”? Did you look like this at 17 years old and a couple months after lifting?
Heck according to you we are all the same….I should be able to take Kramer from Seinfeld and Michael Clarke Duncan from the Green Mile who are about the same height….put them on 3 plus grams of test and they would look the exact same onstage. (laughable)
Its amazing to me the egos in this sport that absolutely refuse to embrace reality. You dont think there are multiples of thousands of bodybuilders in every state in this country that are doing insane megadoses that cant even win a local show? I see it every time I walk a bodybuilding expo. Ill note those guys with the bright red face who are breathing hard just walking because their blood pressure is thru the roof and they are all of 220-240lbs at 5’10” with 20% bodyfat and look like 5 pounds of shit in a 10 pound bag. Theres crazy daredevils on all these bbing message boards jacking huge dosages, some who openly brag about it, seen it on anabolex many times, wheres the pro cards? Wheres the top 10 nationals placement? For that matter wheres the state show title?
I know it absolutey sucks to think someone might have an edge over you and everything you do 100% might still place a far second to their halfass 50% but alot of people on these boards need to get out of dreamworld. Every hardcore bodybuilder in this forum absolutely annihilated Dilletts intensity in the gym, eating, and fortitude yet every one of us would get destroyed onstage by him in his heyday=reality check